The Prophecies Fulfilled by Jesus

It’s commonly said that Jesus fulfilled over 300 prophecies from the Bible. When I was a Christian, I never bothered to check into any of these, but of course that was before web-based Bibles made it so easy. Here is a look at the 44 prophecies that Jesus is said to have fulfilled on

If you are a believer, try to keep in mind that it’s not good enough to look back with hindsight and assume that what was written was a prophecy that came true. Try to honestly look at what was predicted to happen, and what the evidence shows actually happened. Was it something unlikely that actually came to pass? Or is it a vague prediction like a fortune-teller makes, that can always be found to be true in hindsight? Objectively assess whether you could still make as strong a claim that the same prophecy had come true if something different had happened. If you could, it’s not a convincing prophecy.

I will give each one a persuasiveness score and tally them up and the end. Keep your own score and see how convincing you think these prophecies are after you actually read what they really say.

1. The Messiah would be born of a woman.

Prophecy: Genesis 3:15

Fulfillment: Matthew 1:20; Galatians 4:4

There’s not much to dispute with this claim as presented. But truth be known, I was also born of a woman.

The problem with this claim (and many others throughout this list) as presented is that the Genesis verse says nothing remotely close to this claim. It says that humans and snakes will have a strained relationship because of the whole Eve-Apple thing. There is no rational reason to believe that “your offspring” meant a Messiah. This list is not off to a good start.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

2. The Messiah would be born in Bethlehem.

Prophecy: Micah 5:2

Fulfillment: Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-6

This is a legitimate Messianic prophecy, but its fulfillment by Jesus of Nazareth (not Jesus of Bethlehem, you’ll note) is highly suspect. The census that supposedly forced Jesus’ family to travel to Bethlehem is not recorded by historians as other censuses of the time were, nor is there any precedent or logic for requiring travel to your ancestral town for a census. It also leaves the question of how the author knew this story, since they were certainly not around at the time of Jesus’ birth. At best, they are repeating a story told to them by Jesus or his family.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

3. Messiah would be born of a virgin.

Prophecy: Isaiah 7:14

Fulfillment: Matthew 1:22-23; Luke 1:26-31

This one is strong evidence against the truth of the Gospels. It is well known that the Hebrew word “almah” from Isaiah 7:14 meant “young woman”, not just “virgin”. It is very apparent to unbiased readers that the Greek-speaking Gospel authors were familiar with the Septuagint (a Greek version of the Old Testament available at the time) which contained the “virgin” mistranslation, and fabricated the virgin birth story to “fulfill prophecy”. Huge red flag here.

Also, how did they know Mary was a virgin?

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: -8

4. Messiah would come from the line of Abraham.

Prophecy: Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18

Fulfillment: Matthew 1:1; Romans 9:5

There’s not much to argue about the claim that the Jewish Messiah would be a Jew, and thus a descendant of Abraham. Too bad neither OT verse supports the claim; they have nothing to do with the Messiah.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

5. Messiah would be a descendant of Isaac.

Prophecy: Genesis 17:19; Genesis 21:12

Fulfillment: Luke 3:34

So the Messiah was from Abraham’s line AND from Isaac’s line?!? Uncanny.

Add another two verses that say nothing like what this author claims.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

6. Messiah would be a descendant of Jacob.

Prophecy: Numbers 24:17

Fulfillment: Matthew 1:2

Wait, wait, he was from Jacob’s line, too? This is just too much to be coincidence. (For those not getting it, Abraham was Issac’s father and Jacob’s grandfather, and Jacob was also known as Israel, the father of the 12 tribes of Israel.)

So now Jesus has fulfilled four prophecies by being Jewish and having a mother. The bar for fulfilling Biblical prophecy seems to be set rather low.

On the plus side, this Numbers verse is one of the few verses on this list that is actually a prophecy.

On the minus side, it says that this person would crush Moab and conquer Edom. I am not aware of Jesus’ military conquests.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: -5

7. The Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah.

Prophecy: Genesis 49:10

Fulfillment: Luke 3:33; Hebrews 7:14

Like many of these, this one depends on you not bothering to read the verse, as it says nothing like what is claimed. What it says is:

“The scepter will not depart from Judah,
nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet,
until he to whom it belongs shall come
and the obedience of the nations shall be his.”

The “scepter” had departed from Judah centuries before Jesus’ birth; Judah was conquered by others, and under Roman control by Jesus’ time, so this one is not exactly making the case for Jesus as the Messiah.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: -2

8. Messiah would be heir to King David’s throne.

Prophecy: 2 Samuel 7:12-13; Isaiah 9:7

Fulfillment: Luke 1:32-33; Romans 1:3

This Samuel verse talks about a descendant of David reclaiming the throne, but it is very clearly referring to a fallible human, not a perfect God-man.

“When he does wrong, I will punish him” -2 Samuel 7:14

The Isaiah verse is better, but predicts endless peace for Israel, which certainly hasn’t been fulfilled yet.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

9. Messiah’s throne will be anointed and eternal.

Prophecy: Psalm 45:6-7; Daniel 2:44

Fulfillment: Luke 1:33; Hebrews 1:8-12

The Psalms verse is about God’s throne, not the Messiah’s, and unless someone has seen Jesus’ throne, this is simply a claim, not a fulfilled prophecy. Daniel is about a dream of Nebuchadnezzar; it also says nothing about the Messiah. Instead, it says:

“God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.”

If this was a prophecy about the Messiah, it must be that Jesus hasn’t gotten around to it yet.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

10. Messiah would be called Immanuel.

Prophecy: Isaiah 7:14

Fulfillment: Matthew 1:23

This is another serious strike against the Bible, as Jesus’ name was in fact, Yeshua, not Immanuel. There is no record of him ever being called by that name, even in the NT. This verse simply shows that the Gospel author knew of the prophecy. If you would argue that the prophecy is fulfilled by the fact that Christians sometimes call Jesus by that name now, then you are not capable of understanding the idea of self-fulfilling prophecy. Stick with blind faith.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: -5

11. Messiah would spend a season in Egypt.

Prophecy: Hosea 11:1

Fulfillment: Matthew 2:14-15

The whole claim of prophecy here is ridiculous. The verse is clearly referring to the Exodus, not to the Messiah. And if you do insist on twisting the verse to make it refer to the Messiah and not to Israel, you might want to read verse 2, since you will be required to accept that the Messiah worshiped Baal.

If you can get past all that, then the fulfillment story is highly unconvincing, since it depends on Herod having slaughtered all the male infants in the Bethlehem area, which is recorded nowhere else in history. This would have been a pretty big event; historians would have noticed. For some reason, none of the Gospel writers besides Matthew noticed these events, either.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

12. A massacre of children would happen at Messiah’s birthplace.

Prophecy: Jeremiah 31:15

Fulfillment: Matthew 2:16-18

The Jeremiah verse is not a prophecy about the Messiah. It refers to a mother in Ramah (not Bethlehem) weeping for her children, but if you read on to verses 16-17, God says the children will return. So this verse is not about a massacre or the Messiah’s birthplace.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

13. A messenger would prepare the way for the Messiah.

Prophecy: Isaiah 40:3-5

Fulfillment: Luke 3:3-6

This is another unremarkable prediction, but it is talking about preparing the way for God, not the Messiah. The Jews didn’t see the Messiah as being God, and that is required for this to make any sense.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

14. Messiah would be rejected by his own people.

Prophecy: Psalm 69:8; Isaiah 53:3

Fulfillment: John 1:11; John 7:5

This Psalm has nothing to do with the Messiah. It is written in the first person and speaks of “my guilt”, so if it’s about Jesus, then Jesus wasn’t sinless.

The Isaiah verse is is unremarkable, and I don’t see any reason to think it was referring to the Messiah.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

15. Messiah would be a prophet.

Prophecy: Deuteronomy 18:15

Fulfillment: Acts 3:20-22

Jesus’ prophecies included his own return within the lifetimes of his disciples, so I’m not convinced he was much of a prophet. And this is another verse that makes no mention of a Messiah, only another prophet. If you read on to Deuteronomy 18:21-22, though, you’ll find:

“You may say to yourself, “How can we recognize a word that the Lord has not spoken?” If a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord but the thing does not take place or prove true, it is a word that the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; do not be frightened by it.”

That is surprisingly sensible advice, and counts Jesus out as a prophet.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: -5

16. Messiah would be preceded by Elijah.

Prophecy: Malachi 4:5-6

Fulfillment: Matthew 11:13-14

This one is really stretching, since around 60 billion people (more than half of the people who have ever lived) came after Elijah. If it just meant he would be a prophet, it’s the same as the last one.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

17. The Messiah would be declared the Son of God.

Prophecy: Psalm 2:7

Fulfillment: Matthew 3:16-17

This verse is about David and has nothing to do with the Messiah.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

18. The Messiah would be called a Nazarene.

Prophecy: Isaiah 11:1

Fulfillment: Matthew 2:23

This verse doesn’t even say anything about Nazareth; says a new branch will grow from David’s line.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

19. The Messiah would bring light to Galilee.

Prophecy: Isaiah 9:1-2

Fulfillment: Matthew 4:13-16

I’m sure this sounds convincing to those already convinced, but it isn’t really a testable claim; it’s just a Gospel author echoing the Old Testament.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

20. The Messiah would speak in parables.

Prophecy: Psalm 78:2-4; Isaiah 6:9-10

Fulfillment: Matthew 13:10-15,34-35

I don’t see that this verse is a prophecy of the Messiah, nor is it in any way remarkable if fulfilled.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

21. Messiah would be sent to heal the brokenhearted.

Prophecy: Isaiah 61:1-2

Fulfillment: Luke 4:18-19

This is pretty non-specific; pretty much anyone could claim they heal the brokenhearted. Maybe James Taylor is the Messiah?

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

22. The Messiah would be a priest after the order of Melchizedek.

Prophecy: Psalm 110:4

Fulfillment: Hebrews 5:5-6

The NIV version of the Bible even subtitles this “Of David”. It is not referring to the Messiah. Nor was Jesus a priest; the Hebrews verse admits this, and then rationalizes it by claiming Jesus was a priest anyway, even though he wasn’t.

“Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him…’You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.’ -Hebrews 5:5-6

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: -1

23. The Messiah would be called King.

Prophecy: Psalm 2:6; Zechariah 9:9

Fulfillment: Matthew 27:37; Mark 11:7-11

The Psalms verse says nothing like what is claimed; it is about David again.

Zechariah is probably one of the most convincing of this sad bunch. Too bad it only says the king will ride a donkey. OK.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

24. The Messiah would be praised by little children.

Prophecy: Psalm 8:2

Fulfillment: Matthew 21:16

Like all of the Psalms quotes, this has nothing to do with the Messiah, but is clearly David referring to Yahweh directly:

“O Lord, our Sovereign,
how majestic is your name in all the earth!

You have set your glory above the heavens.
Out of the mouths of babes and infants
you have founded a bulwark because of your foes,
to silence the enemy and the avenger.”

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

25. The Messiah would be betrayed.

Prophecy: Psalm 41:9; Zechariah 11:12-13

Fulfillment: Luke 22:47-48; Matthew 26:14-16

Again, the Psalm does not appear to be a prophecy about the Messiah.

The Zechariah verse mentions 30 pieces of silver, but the only betrayal here is the shepherd (God) abandoning his flock.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

26. The Messiah’s price money would be used to buy a potter’s field.

Prophecy: Zechariah 11:12-13

Fulfillment: Matthew 27:9-10

Complete fabrication. The Zechariah verse says nothing about buying a field from the potter, nor is it about the Messiah’s betrayal. If it was, Judas would have to be the shepherd character, which makes no sense.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

27. Messiah would be falsely accused.

Prophecy: Psalm 35:11

Fulfillment: Mark 14:57-58

Like all the Psalms, this is David moaning. It is not a prophecy of the Messiah, nor would it be remarkable if it was. If Jesus fulfilled this, so did every criminal who ever proclaimed his own innocence.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

28. The Messiah would be silent before his accusers.

Prophecy: Isaiah 53:7

Fulfillment: Mark 15:4-5

This one isn’t too terrible; though Jesus wasn’t silent in Mark 15:2. Still, it’s one of the best so far, which is not saying much. I’ll give it a point out of generosity.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 1

29. The Messiah would be spat upon and struck.

Prophecy: Isaiah 50:6

Fulfillment: Matthew 26:67

This one is unremarkable, but not obviously false. By the standard of this list, I’ll call it an amazing win.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 2

30. The Messiah would be hated without cause.

Prophecy: Psalm 35:19; Psalm 69:4

Fulfillment: John 15:24-25

Like all Psalms, both are about David; there’s no reason to think either refers to the Messiah.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

31. Messiah would be crucified with criminals.

Prophecy: Isaiah 53:12

Fulfillment: Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27

This is another whopper; the verse says nothing like “crucified with criminals” it says he was “numbered with transgressors”. It also says “though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring.” This clearly proves that it was not referring to Jesus. Or maybe the DaVinci Code was right and Jesus had children?

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: -5

32. Messiah would be given vinegar to drink.

Prophecy: Psalm 69:21

Fulfillment: Matthew 27:34; John 19:28-29

More Davidic whinging, not Messianic prophecy.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

33. Messiah’s hands and feet would be pierced.

Prophecy: Psalm 22:16; Zechariah 12:10

Fulfillment: John 20:25-27

The Psalm is more Davidic whinging, not a Messianic prophecy. This is a favorite of Christians, the one they claim foreshadows the crucifixion. The problem is the Hebrew word (כארי “karah”) that they claim means “pierce” is never translated that way anywhere else in the Bible. Strong’s says the word karah appears in the Bible 16 times, and is translated as “dig” 12 times. (Note, there is also significant disagreement among scholars over whether “karah” is even the correct word; see the “NET Note” on this verse.) It seems convenient that it means “pierce” only in the one place Christians want it to mean pierce. The prophecies work better if you get to change the meanings of the words to whatever you want them to mean.

The Zechariah verse only says “pierced” (using a different Hebrew word, דָּקַר “dakar“, which actually does mean “pierce”); no specifics like hands and feet. Again, one of the best of a sorry lot.

Given the ambiguities I’ve pointed out, Jesus could have been knifed, killed by an arrow, eaten by lions, buried alive, whatever; and Christians would still be able to make the same weak claim of fulfilled prophecy.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 1

34. Messiah would be mocked and ridiculed.

Prophecy: Psalm 22:7-8

Fulfillment: Luke 23:35

More Davidic whinging, not Messianic prophecy.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

35. Soldiers would gamble for Messiah’s garments.

Prophecy: Psalm 22:18

Fulfillment: Luke 23:34; Matthew 27:35-36

More Davidic whinging, not Messianic prophecy.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

36. The Messiah’s bones would not be broken.

Prophecy: Exodus 12:46; Psalm 34:20

Fulfillment: John 19:33-36

The Exodus verse is a bizarre claim; it is instruction not to break the bones of the Passover meal. It is obvious the author of this list did not expect people to read the verses.

The Psalm is again, not about the Messiah, but is making the obviously false claim that God will protect the righteous man, not allowing his bones to be broken.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

37. The Messiah would be forsaken by God.

Prophecy: Psalm 22:1

Fulfillment: Matthew 27:46

More Davidic whinging. Psalm 22 now makes up 3 separate “prophecies” Jesus fulfilled, all of which prophesy nothing.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

38. The Messiah would pray for his enemies.

Prophecy: Psalm 109:4

Fulfillment: Luke 23:34

More Davidic whinging. Psalm 22 now makes up 4 separate “prophecies” Jesus fulfilled, all of which prophesy nothing.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

39. Soldiers would pierce Messiah’s side.

Prophecy: Zechariah 12:10

Fulfillment: John 19:34

Now the Zechariah verse is trotted out a second time. Unfortunately, it STILL says only “They will look on me, the one they have pierced”. No points given for repeats.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

40. Messiah would be buried with the rich.

Prophecy: Isaiah 53:9

Fulfillment: Matthew 27:57-60

This is one of the best ones, as long as we believe the story of Joseph of Arimithea burying Jesus was not just fabricated to match Isaiah, and pretend the “made his grave with the wicked” part isn’t there.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 2

41. Messiah would resurrect from the dead.

Prophecy: Psalm 16:10; Psalm 49:15

Fulfillment: Matthew 28:2-7; Acts 2:22-32

Psalms, again, are about David, not the Messiah. These verses say:

“you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
nor will you let your faithful one see decay.” Psalms 16:10

“But God will redeem me from the realm of the dead;
he will surely take me to himself.” Psalms 49:15

Both sound more like a profession of belief in an afterlife than a prediction of bodily resurrection, which the Jews had never expected of their Messiah.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

42. Messiah would ascend to heaven.

Prophecy: Psalm 24:1-10

Fulfillment: Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51

This verse from Psalms is another one that makes no claim remotely similar to “the Messiah would ascend to heaven.” In fact, it goes 0 for 2 by not in any way mentioning the Messiah or heaven.

Mark 16:19 is known to be a later addition to the Gospel, and shouldn’t be cited as evidence of anything other than the willingness of believers to commit forgery.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: -1

43. Messiah would be seated at God’s right hand.

Prophecy: Psalm 68:18; Psalm 110:1

Fulfillment: Mark 16:19; Matthew 22:44

Psalm 68 says nothing about anyone being seated at God’s right hand, much less the Messiah:

“When you ascended on high,
you took many captives;
you received gifts from people,
even from the rebellious-
that you, Lord God, might dwell there.” -Psalm 68:18

Psalm 110 has been cited before and is clearly referring to David again, not the Messiah.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0

44. Messiah would be a sacrifice for sin.

Prophecy: Isaiah 53:5-12

Fulfillment: Romans 5:6-8

This seems to me direction to be subservient to God’s will, again, not a Messianic prophecy. If it is, it is a circular claim, since the idea that Jesus was a sacrifice for sins is dependent on him having been the Messiah. If he wasn’t the Messiah, he was just a guy who died.

Haywood’s Persuasiveness Factor: 0


That’s the whole list of 44. My final score is:

Cumulative Persuasiveness Factor: -26

Note that these are 44 selected from the list of 300+ by a Christian who is trying to claim they are persuasive. It’s fair to assume that they chose what they thought were some of the best 44 from the list. Imagine how weak the others must be.

The dishonesty in this list is pretty shocking. Few of the verses say anything that could possibly be mistaken for what the author of the list claims they say. This is really a shining example of why you should not just uncritically accept the claims of religion. You can’t seriously read these and claim that they would convince anyone.

So much for the prophecies Jesus “fulfilled”.

This entry was posted in Atheism, Religion. Bookmark the permalink.

14 Responses to The Prophecies Fulfilled by Jesus

  1. I noticed you used the NRSV. I like the NRSV but I have noticed a few biased renditions of “pro-Christian” scripture (young maiden, Daniel 9, etc.) I now use NKJV to get a balanced interpretation. I will be using that in defense.

    1.) born of a woman – yes.. human, not spiritual or angel or phantasm
    2.) born in Bethlehem – Luke said the FIRST census of Quirinus… implying multiple!
    2.) no precendent or logic to return?
    3.) born of virgin – from PHD
    4.) line of Abraham – says it won’t be foreigner (Like Vespasian!)
    5.) line of Isaac – says it won’t be foreigner
    6.) line of Jacob – same
    7.) Luke and Hebrews don’t explicitly cite fulfilled prophecy.
    8.) 2 Samuel verse -> King Solomon – Solomon established Temple…
    8.) 2 Samuel verse -> will establish throne of kingdom forever -> Messiah’s eternal throne
    8.) Isaiah verse is awesome, on “endless peace” -> Can also be translated to “the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end.”
    9.) Jesus said “Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” The stone not made of humans hands was HIM… he’s the cornerstone. And the everlasting kingdom is the Church.
    10.) This isn’t a straightforward “contradiction.” Matthew says the name of Jesus a couple of verses before making the connection to Immanuel. He wasn’t stupid, why would he clearly “contradict” himself like that if he didn’t have a good reason? “God with us” is merely stating that Jesus is Lord… as is evident by his miracles.
    11.) Season in Egypt – Jesus has a parallel life with Moses. Deuteronomy , 18:15-19
    11.) BTW.. Herod the Great was insanely paranoid. He killed his sons AND his wife! The massacre fits his character.
    12.) Rachel was already dead when Jeremiah wrote this. Her tomb is in Ramah, and referred to her 2 descendant tribes captured and deported to Babylon. Since Rachel died on her way to Bethlehem, Matthew appropriated the prophecy to show that she wept for the children as well.
    13.) John the Baptist. Josephus corroborates his existence. See Immanuel reference.
    14.) Isaiah 53 was regarded as Messianic by early Jews.
    * – Pro-Jew article even admits Isaiah 53 references a Messiah. (just not Jesus???)
    15.) Messiah is Prophet – Predicted his own resurrection. Fulfilled for Apostles. Olivet Discourse. Fulfilled for us.
    16.) Elijah – 2 Kings 1:8 describes Elijah’s wear… also John the Baptist. read Luke 1:13-17. Also
    “Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the GREAT and TERRIBLE day of the Lord.”
    GREAT Day is Jesus Christ, TERRIBLE Day is Temple Destruction 70AD. This also is in line with Luke 4:17-21.
    Jesus reads Isaiah and says it has been fulfilled…. BUT HE STOPS MIDSENTENCE! Compare Luke 4:17-21 with Isaiah 61:1-2 with Luke 21:22
    17.) Messiah is Son of God -> Jews believed it:
    18.) Play on word “Branch” – – Also look at Isaiah 53:2
    19.) Jesus NOT going to these places would reject this prophecy.
    20.) Maybe not remarkable, but confirmed
    21.) heal the broken-hearted…. immediately followed by day of vengeance which was attributed to the Temple Destruction.
    22.) Psalm 110:1 -> The LORD SAYS TO MY LORD… He’s talking about Messiah.
    23.) Would be called King -> lol… why are you refuting this? Even Tacitus can confirm this.

    “Some few put a fearful meaning on these events, but in most there was a firm persuasion, that in the ancient records of their priests was contained a prediction of how at this very time the East was to grow powerful, and RULERS, coming from Judaea, were to acquire universal empire. ” -Tacitus (H 5,13)
    24.) I think Jesus is saying this in regards to: Matthew 18:3. Basically “even the kids get it!” And although “fulfilled”, it takes more meaning with this context.
    25.) Ex 21:32 shows price of slave is 30 shekels of silver. The people paid the shepherd (in disrespect) a slave wage. In other words they held little value of the shepherd.
    26.) Zechariah says to give money to the potter (look at versions OTHER than NRSV): But ensuing judgement I chalk up to Temple Destruction.
    27.) Refer to Isaiah 53:7
    28.) You Agree
    29.) You Agree
    30.) Ties in with Isaiah 53. So yes, they’re valid.
    31.) Numbered with transgressors -> this is allusion to Moses with outstretched arms helped by a man on either side. Crucifixion of Jesus is similar but he has a criminal on either side.
    32.) This was a song written by David. No personal ties.
    33.) You agree
    34.) This was a prophetic song written by David. No personal ties.
    35.) This was a prophetic song written by David. No personal ties.
    36.) Jesus is the Passover lamb… no bones broken.
    37.) This was a prophetic song written by David. No personal ties.
    38.) Psalm 22 was a prophetic song in regard to gambling for clothes. Messiah would pray for his enemies… This can be corroborated with Isaiah 53.
    39.) Piercing and no broken bones. BTW, why are you using NRSV when it clearly has a secular bias?
    40.) You agree
    41.) We can scrap this because it wasn’t included in oldest copies, but we can still use Acts in its place. Psalms seems pretty descriptive too.
    42.) Neither Gospel explicitly mentions ascension was fulfilled by prophecy, we can discard this one if you like.
    43.) Psalm 110 is NOT about David. Read 1st line. The Lord said to MY LORD,
    44.) Messiah would be sacrifice for sin…. This is combination with Isaiah 61, Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Daniel 9 all point to a Messiah in first century that would die for our sins ending with Temple Destruction. Also look at Parable of Wicked Husbandman

    In conclusion you have to look at all of the prophecies as a whole. For example isaiah 61 is one of my favorites. Jesus is recorded of reading it, stopping mid-sentence, and then saying everything up to that point is fulfilled. He stops short of “day of vengeance” which is later referenced in the Luke version of the Olivet Discourse. You have Tacitus verifying that the 1st century Jews were expecting a Messiah AND he also writes that the Messiah was actually Emperor Vespasian!

    We also have Josephus interpreting the Daniel 2 like modern Christians do (Persian-Mede Empire as 2 armed Silver torso). Daniel 2 speaks about a rock not made of human hands which grew into a mountain that filled the Earth. This is the same kingdom Jesus spoke of when he said, “Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!” This is also a reference to the cornerstone that the builders rejected. Jesus also makes reference to this by calling Peter “CEPHAS”… or Rock.

    And finally you have the Olivet Discourse being tied to this:
    Miracles corroborated by 2 respected ancient historians.

    [deleted link promoting off-topic video]

    • persedeplume says:

      I’ll let Heywood chase the ins and outs of your response. I will, if I can muster the intellectual fortitude, respond to your video. It might be a while, I lack the neural plasticity to keep up with the “Jetsons”. At very least, I’ll comment in text here if it doesn’t go well elsewhere.

    • jablomih says:

      Thanks for your comment. I give you credit for being the first Christian to actually read the whole list and respond to it. No one else has done more than say “I disagree”, leading me to believe they didn’t even read it.

      Having said that, your responses don’t actually address the points made. You’ve touched on each one, but didn’t actually make a case for any of them being convincing prophecies. For most of them, you’ve just repeated what Christians claim the prophecy meant. We all know what they claim.

      Many of your responses seem like you just wanted to “check a box” for each one. On 2), for example, you’ve linked to a page referring to a Roman census of Egypt which called for people to “return to their hearths”. There is no reference to returning to the ancestral home of your family as the Lukan census did. In 3), you link to a blog that doesn’t even appear to make the claim that “almah” must mean “virgin”, which is the only way the prophecy works. On 14), you say Jews accept it as referring to Messiah. How does that affect the fact that isn’t at all compelling?

      You missed the whole point of the post. Rather than trying to post some sort of response to each one, it would have been better if you had just followed the suggestion, and scored each one honestly. It looks like you think that if you show that I haven’t disproven them all, this means they are convincing. Your response to 19) is a perfect example: you are implying that the prophecy is convincing unless it is shown Jesus never went to those places; as if that’s the logical default. That’s completely incorrect. If I fail to show they are contradicted, and you fail to show they are compelling, you are left with no compelling prophecies. Which is where the list started out.

      I do sincerely appreciate that you spent the time to read and respond.

      (Note: please refrain from promoting your own sites/videos on my page.)

  2. I don’t want to look at these scriptures with a 21st century English lens. All I care about is whether modern Jews or ancient Jews believed they were Messianic. This is why I went back and read through all of them. I probably would have given +1 to all except about ~5. Those I would give 0. So I would have given a score of 39.

    Yea, but it’s like I said. You have to take all of the prophecies as a whole. For instance… researching this I didn’t realize how helpful all of these individual prophecies are. The born of a woman prophecy would be VERY helpful in combating the idea Jesus was a phantasm. The birthright prophecies eliminate Vespasian. He would have been an excellent case for these prophecies. Also for many of the Psalms you attacked them as David just whinging away about his life. But in actuality they were just songs. You don’t know whether the songs are about him or the Messiah. In the very significant Psalm 110 we have David clearly talking to God about his Lord. Who is he talking about if not the Messiah?

    What I find compelling is Daniel and Isaiah. Jesus quotes from them referencing a major event that happened 40 years afterward.

    I don’t have all the answers, but some of your arguments are from silence. The fact is, we don’t have enough data points for the census of Quirnius or the slaughter of innocents by Herod, But guess what, when you look at the circumstantial evidence, it’s not too far of a leap to think those events happened.

    In conclusion, these prophecies by themselves aren’t impressive, but they do stack up… especially when there are 365 of these types of references.

    • jablomih says:

      I don’t know why you would want to limit your view to what ancient Jews would have thought. Early Mormons thought Joseph Smith was a legitimate prophet. I think they were gullible. If you want me to believe that these are miraculous prophecies, then telling me that ancient Jews would have thought that they were accomplishes nothing. If you are using a scale like I did, and are giving +1 to most, you are admitting that they are not remarkable at all. One hundred, or one thousand “prophecies” on the order of “born of a woman” or “silent before accusers” would add up to “not remotely convincing of supernatural origin”. It doesn’t matter how many you stack up; none are remarkable at all.

      When you are saying I “argue from silence”, you are again trying to shift the burden of proof; to make me prove the prophecies *didn’t* come true. All I have to do is show they weren’t convincing. Mission accomplished.

      • It’s not about being convincing. The prophecies above are not supposed to be… (at least they’re not for me.) They are used as a security system to make sure the Messiah was vetted. The reason I care if Jews thought they were Messianic is because we already have evidence of Jews attacking that Messianic validation framework. So in the interest of objectivity, I want to know if the Jews consider the prophecies Messianic as well… and not just Christians pushing their own propaganda.

        For Christians the biggest factor that convinces is Christian Mysticism. In other words, feeling the presence of God is what convinces most people. But for guys like us, we need more. We need more data. For me that data is the Olivet Discourse. Now THAT is me is convincing…. not the 44 prophecies you mentioned above.

        We can use empirical data to validate whether or not the prophecies are legitimate. And that’s the testable model. This is how I can make predictions. I predict we will find more evidence that will corroborate early dating of the Gospels. I”ve drawn the line. I can test my worldview. And that’s the whole point. If more evidence comes in that contradicts it, then I will be ready to re-evaluate. Until then I’m happy being a child of God.

        You can rationally have a relationship again with Jesus Christ. Once you understand how it’s skewed you can stand up for yourself unafraid. You can stand up for Jesus.

        • jablomih says:

          “It’s not about being convincing”? Really? But they are supposed to “vet” Jesus, without being convincing? You’ve given up on rationality at this point.

          “Christian Mysticism” (your personal feeling that Christianity is true) is obviosuly unreliable, since Muslims and New Agers have the same feeling about their beliefs which contradict yours.

          You will not reevaluate the evidence, since you are deeply invested in your desired conclusion. No matter what evidence comes in, you will mold it to “support” your conclusion. Just in this discussion, you gave up very easily on your rationality to keep your beliefs.

  3. Two points…

    First you erroneously interpret the messages using a 21st century mindset. For instance the maiden. In the article it clearly states that a maiden would have been culturally understood to be a virgin… otherwise as a woman she would be classified as an adulterer, sexually active and married, or a prostitute. You did the same thing with “endless peace”. I would also like to add that “world” also means “inhabited world… aka Roman Empire”. Paul mentions on numerous occasions where the Gospel had been spread throughout the world. You can’t just refute these prophecies based on 21st-century meanings of the words.

    Second, I would also like to say that this entire page supports my argument for the Olivet Discourse. When you attack “how weak” these prophecies are, you actually make the case for the Olivet Discourse even stronger.

    The authors continually state, “as was written in the scriptures”… over and over…

    The effort these writers exuded… The proofs they wrote… WHY THE HECK DID THEY NOT POINT OUT THE TEMPLE DESTRUCTION? If Luke copied Josephus (or Tacitus), why wouldn’t he have just said, “Jesus predicted the star, the revolt, the armies in the sky, the lamb born from a heifer, the light shining down on the temple, the heavy door opening by itself, the actual Temple Destruction.” It would have been simple to tie it up in a nice little bow. But he didn’t!

    But Luke mentions the Star of Bethlehem. He mentions the supernatural darkness. He mentions the Ascension. He mentions the transfiguration and seeing the spirits of Moses and Elijah. He mentions Agabus successfully prophesying in Acts. He mentions the genealogies. He mentions the Psalms. He mentions the cornerstone. He mentions Elijah and John the Baptist. He makes the entire case, but he leaves out the slam dunk? the silver bullet? the crazy miracles corroborated by 2 other respected historians? It just seems odd.

    • jablomih says:

      I am not interpreting “almah” with “a 21st century mindset”. Unless you think that no young maiden ever had a baby until Jesus, then there is no miracle implied. And none of it addresses the fact that there is no reason to believe Mary was a virgin, other than the fact that someone who didn’t meet her until 30 years after she gave birth (if ever) said that she was.

      You are stuck on the idea that my goal was to refute these “prophecies”. That isn’t required. I am exposing them to the light of day, so that people can see that they are not in any way remarkable and that there’s no good reason to postulate supernatural origin. By grading them all +1, you have told me that I succeeded.

      Regarding why they didn’t mention the temple destruction, I don’t think you’ve thought this through. If they were writing just after the temple destruction but pretending to have written before, how would they cite the temple destruction without making it obvious that they were not written before the temple destruction? The only way to do it would be to do what they appear to have done: “predict” something which all their readers would have known had already happened, without giving the trick away by mentioning that it had already happened. Mentioning it wouldn’t have wrapped it up in a bow, it would have ruined the trick.

      Forget about religion for a minute and think through how you would write a fake prophecy “predicting” something that has already happened. You obviously can’t say that it’s already fulfilled without ruining it.

      • Yea I have thought it through. They would have said, “And Jesus said there would be a Cross in the sky.” And Jesus said “a light from heaven would shine down.”

        They used VIRGIN. They used STAR OF BETHLEHEM. They used TWO SPIRITS (Moses and Elijah). They used WALKING ON WATER. They used RESURRECTING FROM DEAD. They were not ambiguous. They described IN DETAIL the supernatural phenomenon. Why did they not follow suit with the Temple?

        And btw, the Gospels were spread far and wide. Not everyone would have known about the Temple.

        • jablomih says:

          I just told you why they didn’t mention the temple (because it would make it obvious that the “prophecy” was not written before the events) and your response was to ask me why they didn’t mention the temple.

          If you were somewhat rational about this, you would apply your same standard of evidence to claims of prophecy other than the ones you were raised to believe, which would have you believing in tons of prophets from all different religions. If you were a bit more rational, you’d believe none of them.

  4. BTW here is a link to the 365 references I talked about above:

    You can add it to my post if you want:.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out /  Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )


Connecting to %s